There are those of us who go through the motions of praying for guidance while continuing to do what we planned to do all along. Quite often that is called evidence of "successful prayer"..
There is the joke of the preacher who rushed in through the door of his house yelling to his wife to start packing while he prayed for guidance as to whether to move nor not.
And then there is the problem of unanswered prayer. The trite explanations that God always answers but: 1) sometimes the answer is "No" and 2) God answers but in a manner that is not recognized by the beseecher, do not adequately address the problem of "Why". The anguish of parents over the sickness and possible death of a young child is an example. I am sure the Lord is capable of making an unmistakable response, even to weak believers. It would appear those are the very persons that need clear answers.
Often we trivialize prayer by partaking in it while thinking of something else - a sort of rote or habitual thing, or we ask for action on sweeping general requests, or it is part of a ritual.
I am not about to show my ignorance by defining what prayer is, or should be. If I knew that, I probably would not be writing this critique.
Henry Jones
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You have amazing, well thought discussion points. Hopefully more people will not just follow this and read them, but will also comment as well. Don't be discouraged it takes time for people to catch up with something new.
ReplyDeleteI will show my ignorance :-) and, just for the sake of discussion, define prayer generally as our side of communication with God. God's response, I will say, is a different thing. I guess within this definition there can be different kinds of prayer in both content and form. The Bible talks about "praying in the spirit" and "praying with the understanding" (1Cor. 14:14-15; Eph. 6:18) and I suppose we could equate this difference with that between 'prayer' as a consciously set aside effort to speak uninterruptedly to God (with the understanding) versus 'prayer' as, for example, working in the garden (in the spirit). While we are told to "pray without ceasing" (1Thess. 5:17) and to "be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" (Phil. 4:6); thankfully, we are also comforted, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Rom. 8:26)
ReplyDeleteTo specifically address the points you made above, I would say the zealot is 'misusing' prayer only in the sense that perhaps he is not really addressing the True God... i.e. he is perhaps deceived and rather in communication with devils or idols. Whether or not a request is legitimate or is/isn't in accordance with God's will, however, does not, I think, necessarily mean prayer itself is being misused. We are instructed to make our requests known even though we are also told that we don't always know what we should pray for. I am certain that I personally have requested things of God that were not truly for good or in agreement with what God willed and I think that is ok. Indeed, I think God is very much pleased simply with my honest desire to turn to, seek, and depend on Him.
I would actually say that going through the motions to ask for guidance then proceeding to do what you want anyway is more of a 'misuse' of prayer than what the zealot did. God knows our hearts and though we may fool ourselves or others by such actions, God is not duped. Prayer, as I defined it, is communication with God; that is, presenting/offering to God what is in ourselves... thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, problems, joys, concerns, etc.. God already knows what is there (more than we ourselves do in fact) and if we 'go through the motions' or 'partake in it while thinking of something else' or do it as a 'sort of rote or habitual thing' or as 'part of a ritual' when it is not what is authentically in our hearts; well, in my opinion, that is like lying to God.
I will make a confession. When a ritual form is presented in service and I am unable at that time to authentically enter into the spirit of the prayer or ritual, I pray in my own head what is truly there instead. I do believe many of the pre-written prayers in the hymnal, for example, are helpful to instruct our spirits and to draw us into/toward certain spiritual places. Accordingly, I do my best to conform my heart and mind to what is being offered up; but if it's not there, it's not there and I don't really stress about that. I actually get spiritually distracted sometimes too simply by trying to find the right page in the book!
Well, the issue of God's response to our prayer and how we are to wait upon and discern that response is a whole other topic that I am not prepared to go into right now. Maybe later... I'll pray about it :-)!
Blessings and good night.
Tracy
I agree that prayer is most often defined as our attempt to communicate with God. A lot of attention and discussion is given to prayer on a limited basis. I will extend the discussion to another facet of prayer: the CURSE. Whether stated or not, the curse generally is asking God to do some harm to someone or something.
ReplyDeleteExcept in events of tragedy, the curse is often the most honest and emotional form of prayer in which many of us partake. In addition, quite often we partake in this form of prayer habitually and without thinking. The military organizations, particularly at the enlisted level, use profanity and curses as a form of routine communication.
I introduce this aspect of prayer primarily to show that in religious services and discussions we restrict ourselves to limited and predictable subjects that adults generally are quite familiar with. It is true that most of us need these continual reminders, but life is much more complex that our religious teachings seem to address. We address a numb of subjects separately and pretend they can be isolated in real life. However, in life we wear only one hat. All aspects of our lives are intertwined. We conduct ourselves with other people and exhibit behavioral characteristics quite differently on Sunday and in church than we do in the business and social world. That is misleading.
Sincerely,
Henry
I don't think I understand what you are saying Henry. How does the 'curse' fit in with the limitations of religious services or how is individual life having many facets misleading?
ReplyDeleteThough we are each a single, coherent consciousness/spirit meandering through our days here on earth, I certainly do not feel I only wear one hat in life! I am a mom, a daughter, a friend, a neighbor, a teacher, a congregant, a gardener, etc. and I conduct myself differently in each of those roles. Further, even apart from roles or distinctions such as 'business, social or religious worlds'; I feel, think and act differently during different stages in life or even during different circumstances or moods. I don't find this to be misleading. Rather, to me, it is an expression of the wonderful diversity, depth, variety and aliveness that God has endowed personhood with.
True, life can be complex, but I believe the teachings of our faith are more than adequate to address every facet of what we experience. In a way, it is precisely the simplicity of Jesus' commands to love God and love neighbor that makes our religion easily applicable to all situations and circumstances. Ironically, it has been my experience that those who genuinely seek to apply the basic teachings of Christianity to ALL aspects of life find that life actually is not that complicated. "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
As for cursing... imprecation is common in the Psalms where David is repeatedly found requesting some pretty harsh actions from God toward his enemies. As you said, often these are very honest and emotional pleas, and since David was a man after God's own heart, obviously God is not against us feeling and expressing these emotional requests. At the same time, God says vengeance is His and He will repay. You'll also find that David was concerned for justice and deliverance more than for raw vengeance and he never did take action against Saul... in fact, he passed up the opportunity when it presented. Are you questioning why we don't express imprecatory prayers in Sunday services?
Apparently I can only write so much per post... so I'll have to post again to say more...
Ok... the second half of the post...
ReplyDeleteIf so (that is, that you are questioning why we don't express imprecatory prayers in Sunday services), I have a thought about that. Sunday service, to me, is simply an extension of my daily relationship with God. For me, private prayer, worship and bible study are not limited to Sunday and I do not participate in formal gatherings primarily to get a weekly dose of those things. They are a way of life and I believe that is what God intends for all His Spirit-filled children. Perhaps, life outside of Sunday seems different or more complicated to some not because God limits us on Sunday, but because we limit God to Sunday.
I do, however, particularly enjoy Sunday services as a special opportuntiy to come together with other believers in unified worship and thanksgiving. Though I usually wear jeans and dirty t-shirts when I work during the week and may even get angry and partake in a cursing prayer without thinking; I don't mind putting on clean, 'proper' clothes once a week in reverence to the Almighty, nor do I mind trying to set aside my own personal issues and problems to enter into praise. Regardless of what is going on in my life, God is ALWAYS worthy of worship, praise and adoration (Rev. 4:11). Accordingly, I do not find it necessary or even desirable to express imprecatory prayers in Sunday service.
I want to say also that the institutional church is a wonderful 'hub' where Christian believers can work together to coordinate or organize complex outreach services in the name of Jesus. As a local organization, it is also a good place for believers to connect with like-minded folk for both social (i.e. potlucks) and religious (i.e. Bible studies) activity in an ostensibly God-honoring environment. Even so, if we are truly to be knit together as the body of Christ, I believe it is essential to share also in the private happenings of each other's lives outside of the church building and events to provide that support, encouragement, reproof, comfort, rebuke, and so forth that we each need to grow to maturity in Christ. It is in this arena that I feel expression of imprecatory feelings may be appropriate.
Still, the soldier's cursing, in my opinion, if you are referring to basic ill-temper, meanness and profanity, is simply sin and should not be condoned or tolerated. A Christian friend who truly loves that soldier will patiently yet continually request a change of verbal expression and will seek to help the young man/woman to find some faith, trust, compassion, understanding and peace in their hearts so that they are not so overcome by anger that such unbecoming vulgarity spews forth from their mouths.
Back to the topic of ritual prayers...
ReplyDeleteMy Christian journey has been about 10 years long and started with a rather radical conversion experience during a very difficult and traumatic time in my life... I had hit rock bottom as common parlance might have it.
I started outside of any church involvement and settled first in an Assembly of God in CA whose fire and brimstone, you better...or else preaching helped me to turn from things in my life that were sinful. I moved to VA to go to Liberty and became a Baptist which helped me to solidify regular religious patterns and turned me toward an emphasis on evangelism. That church had some challenges so we had to move on and I chose a non-denominational congregation which was very fundamentalist and evangelical. Over time, as I studied and prayed and grew in the Lord, I realized that I was not basically an evangelist and so we switched to the Methodist church. I very much believe God placed me and my children at this church to further develop, deepen, strengthen and apply our faith.
One of the things that is unique to the Methodist way as far as my church experience goes is the ritual aspect of services and I recently ran across the phrase 'sacramental theology'. Basically it seems to assert that certain rituals or rites have power in and of themselves to bestow grace upon the participants. I'm just wondering, is this the idea behind the ritual prayers?
Thanks for your help.
To me, all communication with God is prayer. You have chosen to divide the subject into two parts, asking God to do good (prayer) and asking God to do harm (imprecation). I would presume that God takes both types of pleas equally seriously. At the moment we are making the pleas, we certainly are hoping they are being taken seriously.
ReplyDeleteMost of our religious services are on safe and non-controversial aspects of subjects. I am saying that we talk about prayer and the resulting good things that follow in one way or another. We do not talk about how we ask God to bring harm to others or things in the form of cursing. Yet cursing is quite common. When we ask God to do something, good or bad, it is a prayer.
Relative to wearing different hats, I am saying that we are not consistent in interacting with other people. On Sunday and other religious services, we are very polite, we do not speak ill of others, and we are generally cooperative. Come Monday morning, we are in the work world, it is very competitive, and we generally are looking out for ourselves. To me, that is adopting two opposing attitudes(or wearing two hats so to speak) towards people. In our relations with God and people, we should be consistent.
I have raised these questions to instill some life into this blog, they do not necessarily represent any strongly felt concerns or ideas on my part. In particular, I do not seek to convince anyone to change his/her ideas concerning religious thought, I am no authority on that subject.
Henry Jones
So, you raised these questions to instill some 'life' into this blog. Seems to me what you mean by 'life' is controversy, contention and criticism. Does 'life' mean to rile people up? to excite them? to incite them? I am sorry that you are not offering 'any strongly felt concerns or ideas'. The blog might seem livelier to you if you did. Though I appreciate that you are not 'trying to convince' in the sense that you recognize and respect each individual's freedom to form their own opinions and conclusions, I would hope also that you are indeed authentically expressing and sharing what you believe to be truth for the edification of your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord.
ReplyDeleteFor my part, I am honestly seeking through this blog to share and to receive, that is mutually; thoughts, ideas, perspectives, encouragement, rebuke and so forth on religious and spiritual topics. By doing so, I hope to be strengthened and built up in all the fruits of the Spirit (see Galatians 5:22-23) as well as to promote and encourage the productiveness of my fellows for the glory of God. I am not basically participating in this blog for the sport of it and I am expressing concerns and ideas that I feel strongly about, or at least I am honestly considering and responding to the posts of others assuming they too are discussing things that are important to them. I do hope that both myself and others will change our ideas concerning religious thought; and more so, I hope that both myself and others will change our behaviors and practices; and even more so, I hope both myself and others will experience a deep change in heart and attitude that makes us all more Christ-like. This, to me, is spiritual growth and is, or at least to me should be, a main concern of the congregation of believers for one another.
The above said...
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Henry that heart-felt pleas to God for both blessing and cursing are considered prayer and are taken seriously by God. I also contend that God is sovereign, vengeance is His and no matter how deeply or sincerely we pray for harm or blessing for ourselves or others, it is God who will choose to enact or to withhold pleasant or painful consequences for people.
As far as not including prayers for 'harm' in religious services, I don't think that is necessarily the case in all sects and denominations. I have been in congregations that have held corporate prayer AGAINST, say, political actions or persons teaching things that the congregation felt were anti-Biblical or anti-Christian. On a personal level, though I too have felt desires for retribution and justice, no matter what the offense, the ideal is always for the perpetrator to realize his/her error, repent, be forgiven and be changed. It is better to pray for that than to pray for harm. 2Peter3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Such long-suffering is, I believe, something we should also personally cultivate and strive toward if we are concerned to please God. Beware also, Matthew 6:14-15, “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” If we repeatedly harbor hope for harm for others, we may want to check our heart and pray rather that the Lord would guide US to repentance and that the Spirit would work within US a more peaceable and compassionate disposition.
As far as cursing being common and people being nice on Sunday and selfish the rest of the week...
First, I am sorry that such has been your experience. Please consider that there are some who are minded to serve God and others all week long. Also, and again, we are still called to cultivate patience and long-suffering towards each other recognizing that we ALL fall short in some areas, at some times, under some circumstances, etc.. We all adopt different attitudes towards people on occasion, and as the Pastor replied to the man that said he wasn't coming to church because they were all hypocrites, 'There's always room for one more!' We can all be hypocrites at times. It is not good and God does not condone it; but He has provided a provision of grace for us and allows us the space, time and help of the Holy Spirit so that we may recognize and perhaps overcome our shortcomings.
Second, I agree with you that we should strive for consistency in our relations with God and people.
In Christ,
Tracy